Artist and Master Hatter Nate Funmaker on Finding Your Path

Could Creativity Pay The Bills

Judy Oskam 0:01

Have you ever wondered whether you could make a living doing something creative? Nate Funmaker didn't set out to build a hat making business. He said yes to helping a friend. And then he discovered work he wanted to keep doing. I'm Judy Oskam Welcome to Stories of Change, Helping You Navigate What's Next. I had the honor of sitting down with Nate at his shop in Georgetown, Texas. He uses antique equipment and traditional methods to make custom hats. He's a Ho Chunk Native American artist and a master hat maker whose work is in such demand that there's a year-long wait for hats. We talked about learning the craft and figuring out the business and how we stayed with it when life wasn't so easy. If you're wondering about an interest and whether you could make something more out of it or make it a business, well, I think there's a lot to learn from how Nate found his way forward. I started by asking him how it all began.

Helping A Friend Becomes A Craft

Nate Funmaker 1:13

When I started, I was helping a friend. At the time we cut timber together and planted trees. It was more planting of trees, but cutting timber. It was subcontracting. And he left the crew because he found this hat maker. And he's always had an obsession for hats. And so That's in Colorado, right?

Judy Oskam 1:34

That was in Colorado.

Nate Funmaker 1:35

In Mancos, Colorado. So he started learning from a gentleman named Perry Lewis. His name is Steve King. So Steve started learning, and then he found me. You know, back then there was no cell phone. So he found me about a year, maybe two years later, and just said, Hey, um, I need help. I know you're a worker because you plant trees and cut timber. But I and and me as a as an I'm I'm an artist, so just the idea of making good money doing some sort of art, I was like, Yeah, I'm in. I'll I'll I'll come. So 94, maybe February of 90 1994, I went and started. So I never started it to buy it. I never started it to in my head was like, oh, this will be a fun month, a few months, a year, maybe. Just fun to help them get it going, really. And um and it turned into more than that.

Judy Oskam 2:34

Well, when when did it like happen where and maybe you're the case where it took 25 years to to be an overnight success? Is it that kind of a deal?

Nate Funmaker 2:44

I think it was more like after after well what what happened was five years into it, my fifth year, um I just um just things business-wise weren't working out with with him and me. So I was gonna move on. So I had entertained a hat maker in Alpine, Texas. And so I went to Alpine, was talking in negotiations to come work for him. He loved my work. Um and then um I went back and told Steve, and he said, I I don't want to make hats. So I he had by then he had not made a hat. He shaped hats. But um what I do is really different than what most people think as a hat maker. I'm a hat maker, and that means I buy a very raw hat blank, and then I block it on a block. And I it's it's a lot of building, a lot of sanding, a lot of shaping, a lot of steam. So it's blocked on the hat block.

Judy Oskam 3:47

So for the listeners, it's a it's a block of, it's a sheet of fabric.

Nate Funmaker 3:51

No, it's like a sombrero. It looks like a big sombrero. So I get that, and then I put it on a block, and then I block it to a specific crown height that could be six inches, it could be five inches, it could be four inches, really, whatever the customer wants. So really we build a tailored hat. Um, so by then at year five, I loved it enough to where it's like, I I loved, I want to keep doing

Buying The Tools With A Loan

Nate Funmaker 4:20

this. So that's why I went to to Texas. So then I got back and Steve was like, Well, I I could sell my hat equipment for 50 grand at the time or whatever, but I'll sell it to you for 20 grand. And I didn't have 20 grand. Um, I was a golfer then. This is a crazy story, but I golfed with a uh what they call blind draw. It's three guys and me. So it's a forcing group. And the blind draw, I got a guy named Mike Fleming. No, I didn't know Mike. I knew he was from Mancus, my little town. Our golf course course we remember that was in Cortez, 16 miles away. So we golfed, and he was telling, I was telling him about my little story. You know, as you're as you're it's a golf to me, the fun part it is. The fun part about golfing is like you either know in 18 holes, like I never want to see this person again, or hey, here's my number if you want to go play again. So uh at the end, Mike was like, so come to the bank, uh, come to the bank Monday and we'll talk about that loan loan. I was like, because I didn't ask him for a loan. I didn't know he worked at the bank because I I know everyone at the bank. This is a small town foretellers president, vice president.

Judy Oskam 5:35

Yeah.

Nate Funmaker 5:36

Um, well, I didn't know he owned it, so he didn't even work there. So he when we walked in Monday, he's like, Can I borrow someone's desk? I'm gonna do some business and blah, blah, blah. So he loaned me 25,000 to start it.

Judy Oskam 5:50

And that's what started that.

Nate Funmaker 5:51

That's what started it.

Judy Oskam 5:52

Wow.

Giving Back And Why It Matters

Nate Funmaker 5:53

Yeah.

Judy Oskam 5:53

So relationships really.

Nate Funmaker 5:55

Oh, yeah, without a doubt. Yeah. And and I don't, um, yes, they without a doubt. I'm at that stage now at year 31, where even doing this, I mean, I don't mind doing this. I don't mind doing demonstrations. I don't mind doing something that's gonna um hopefully help kids and hopefully help. Um, we just had a we had a show come out eight years ago, and we had one gentleman, it was a PBS show, it was on PBS. Um, I I don't know if it was around the world. But I think the most touching email we got, and we always got emails when it aired. So it aired in Canada, and we got 50 emails or whatever. But one in particular, a guy said, I'm I'm bedridden. I've been bedridden for many years, and um nothing really puts a smile on my face nowadays. But I watched your episode and I was smiling for days after that. So he had to write and tell us, and we're just Kerrie and I are my wife and I are just sitting there like not crying, but just like that's just that's when it's worth it to me.

Judy Oskam 6:58

Yeah, yeah.

Nate Funmaker 6:59

Not not to say I'm a great guy because I don't think of myself as a great guy. I think of myself as um, you gotta give back. And I and I do that. And I don't do that for it to be in a newspaper, I don't do it to be called a good guy, do it because it's the right thing to do.

Judy Oskam 7:17

Yeah, I love that.

Nate Funmaker 7:18

And my business profits because of that. So it's amazing how that um formula works, but it really does work. And and even if it didn't, it's the right thing to do.

Judy Oskam 7:29

Yeah,

Heritage, Family, And A Giving Heart

Judy Oskam 7:30

yeah. Well, how much does your heritage play into that?

Nate Funmaker 7:33

About how you started and I think my heritage, other than um, I had folks that were um how I describe it is I had um rated G parents. And so when I say that, my I was the tenth of 11 kids. Um my my folks um were um I don't know if they were alcoholics, but they drank quite a bit, and they were pretty rambunctious. Tribal tribal people were pretty rambunctious. So at the age of five, for me, I don't know how old they were, they um became uh born-again Christians and just started reading the Bible, found the church. And so um we moved from our tribe in Wisconsin um out west. And their theory behind that was like, let's give at least seven of these kids, I think seven of us moved, some give them something to do with their lives. Like, you gotta do something with your life. I mean, don't do nothing, do do accomplish something, and give back like that.

Judy Oskam 8:38

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Nate Funmaker 8:39

I mean, and they and they were um when you say tribal, and when we say um, they were that way. I mean, they were they were that, they were always that way. I mean, if a family member that was a cousin or whatever came over, my mom was feeding them. My mom was and and it was so cool to see in a day, you know. Now we live in a day and age, and I'm probably one of them that I get home and it's like, leave me alone. I I don't want to talk to anybody. I don't want to um, but my folks were very, nope, this is what we do. If we have a relative here, so I think upon saying that, I always had a giving heart, and and my my folks did as well. Um, but yeah, so so really for me growing up, it was funny how often my older siblings would say, Well, mom and dad used to do, oh mom and dad used to, you know what I mean, and and until they passed away, that's how they lived their life.

Judy Oskam 9:35

Oh, that's great. That's great. And they were um were they able to see some of your success?

Nate Funmaker 9:39

They were um not really. No. And I don't even know it's funny you say that because I don't even think of it as a success. I mean you're I own everything I have. Yeah, I it I am very accomplished as a hat maker. I'm I'm one of the best. And I think when you say one of the best, what makes you one of the best is I care about it. I want, I don't want it just to be a good quality hat. I want it to be your hat.

How A Custom Hat Gets Made

Judy Oskam 10:07

Well, I know when I came in looking, this is how I stumbled into your shop. And I remember you came up and said, Can we help you? And Kerrie came up, your wife, and and I said, Well, I don't know what I'm looking for. And you kind of said something like, Well, you'll know it. You'll know it when you when you find it'll find you, yeah. You know, and and I just kind of slowed down then. I thought, okay, I need to really make this hat speak to me and me speak to the hat.

Nate Funmaker 10:32

Right, right. And it's funny how that works, that maybe that's not for everybody. Maybe it's not maybe you can't find the hat. I mean, I have a brother, um, we don't have a lot of hair, our family, but I have a brother, Marty, that has never worn a hat, has never worn a ball cap. He hates hats. And then my my dad, Adam, was a ball cap freak. And so me growing up, I was a ball cap freak. And now I have two sons, Ethan and Ezra. They're both ball cap freaks. Um, I think there's something to be said about, you know, liking a hat. There's a reason I did this, you know, because I because I love hats.

Judy Oskam 11:15

Yeah.

Nate Funmaker 11:16

I I just know um if I get done here and go have a beer with the buddy, and if I wear a cowboy hat, it's amazing how people think, oh, you're dressed up tonight. Yeah. It's like, not really. I mean, I'm wearing my hat, but I make a hat, so sometimes I better wear a hat.

Judy Oskam 11:33

Yeah.

Nate Funmaker 11:34

Um to me, it's like that's um it's it's such a beautiful look. And and it's even more beautiful on a woman, a hat. I mean, when you again, when you find the right hat, and and when I say that too, I don't dictate that somebody, I want to listen.

Judy Oskam 11:53

Yeah.

Nate Funmaker 11:53

I I think that's it. I think you knock down a barrier where it's like, well, let you tell me. Oh, okay, well, I'm from Mississippi, and I'm blah blah blah, and just yeah, and or wherever. I'm from Canada, I'm from and I just love that. I I think for one, you hear about their world a little bit, and they hear about your world a little bit. Yeah.

Judy Oskam 12:12

So each hat has a story.

Nate Funmaker 12:14

Each hat has a story, as in I have hundreds of orders. So each hat has a story of usually I took a picture of the person. Um usually that that's there could be the height of this person, the weight. I mean, I want it to be proportioned for them. So I mean, that to me enters into the picture of of a hat when it's done. Yeah. Um, again, I think a a a good fusion is um listening, but helping, helping as well. Not just me telling you, well, because you're 6'3, you need this. Right. You know, say showing a big brim, big and maybe you do, but I'm gonna listen. Because most of my big customers, I just built a size eight hat, which is 25 inches.

Speaker 3 13:03

Uh-huh.

Nate Funmaker 13:04

And it's not that big. I mean, because I think most big guys are like, I, dude, I already know I'm big. I don't need that. I don't want that. You need more hats. I I I want it to be pro, but yet I don't want a beanie. I I want it to be proportioned for me. Yeah. So make it for me.

Judy Oskam 13:21

Well,

Standards, Honesty, And A Year Wait

Judy Oskam 13:22

and I think the fact that you were an artist, the fact that this is truly an art form and a craft.

Nate Funmaker 13:28

Right. I I think that question's been uh interviews, you know, has been asked for for so long. And and I don't know, people ask, uh, am I a craftsman? Am I an artist? You know, I I just think of myself as I think I'm all of it. I mean, I think I I made a lot better hat than the first hat maker. And and God bless his heart, because Perry was the one that started you on the journey. And we just lost him a few months ago. But he was that first guy that made a pretty crude hat, but he made a hat.

Judy Oskam 14:05

Yeah.

Nate Funmaker 14:05

Um because it's funny, years later, he would describe me as, oh, you make those fruit fru hats, you know, because I made it with a better finish. I made it with a better, you know, I made better quality. I made better only because I wanted it to be. It's kind of like my golf game or my um I'm playing disc golf now as I'm 62 years old. It's like I want to be better.

Judy Oskam 14:28

I mean, I I I guess that's just so have you always been sort of competitive?

Nate Funmaker 14:33

Yeah, I've always been my dad was a um was a heavy sportsman. He won a state um state tournament in basketball in high school in an all Indian school. Um, he was from Nebraska. Um and that was a rare, rare feat for a whole in for an entire Indian team to win a state championship. Yeah.

Judy Oskam 14:56

Yeah.

Nate Funmaker 14:56

Um, and that was like, I don't even know, 1950. I have a picture somewhere.

Judy Oskam 15:01

Yeah, yeah.

Nate Funmaker 15:02

So yeah, I was uh I was an athlete growing up. I was a basketball, baseball, and and even more, I think, um, and here's a good part of being raised by good parents is um as I got older, it's like you're gonna do something after school. I and I don't and my dad, just my dad speaking. I don't care what that is, but you could sing in the choir, you could do drama, you could, but you're gonna do you have to do something. Or um my dad house painted and I grew to hate, utterly hate house painting. Um, because if I was off of one sport from another for two weeks, he would live up to his story and take me house painting. It was like, yeah, I hate this. I so hate this. I hate it now.

Judy Oskam 15:49

But yeah. So it made you do something.

Nate Funmaker 15:52

It just made you do something. I think that's the the part of um the word accountability that's not used a lot anymore.

Judy Oskam 16:00

Kept you busy.

Nate Funmaker 16:01

I mean, our kids are the same way. Uh it's like just show me if as long as you show me something, I'm gonna help you out.

Speaker 3 16:07

Yeah, yeah.

Nate Funmaker 16:08

But if you don't, and I and thank God that they're all doers because I would be beside myself if they didn't do something. So um I think in anything, I'm gonna be for one, I'm gonna be honest with people. And that's again a rarity. It's like that's how I was raised. I mean, if if I can um if I can't, if I can't suffice somebody in the hat, I will give them back their money or or whatever the story is. For one, I'm gonna tell them pretty much right off the bat, it's a year wait. I mean, I have 300 orders.

Judy Oskam 16:45

Yeah.

Nate Funmaker 16:45

So I would want to be told, like, tell me the story, and then I'll deal with it from there. If you want to wait a year, that's cool. If you don't, then that's cool too. Um I'm pretty um happy to be at that point of uh, you know, I I starve for doing this for so many years. So it's good to be on the other end of that where um financially I'm there, but more mentally I'm there. More mentally, I'm like, I know how good I am. And if you don't appreciate that, then you don't deserve what I'm gonna make you.

Judy Oskam 17:21

Yeah, yeah.

Nate Funmaker 17:22

So well, I I I don't again, I I hate to be a horn tutor or say I'm this or that, but what I do know is I put a lot of love in it, I put a lot of energy in it. And so if I don't feel like if me and somebody aren't hitting it off, then I generally will say, you know what, there's some good hat makers out there, and I could give you a list of them if you want, but I'm not gonna make you a hat. Yeah.

Judy Oskam 17:47

So

Turning Art Into A Real Business

Judy Oskam 17:48

yeah. Um well if you were giving advice to someone listening who really wanted to continue to start a business, or if you're giving advice to someone who wants to to try and turn their art into a business, what would you tell them?

Nate Funmaker 18:04

You know, I I um I did career days on Indian land, uh Navajo land for a few years. And it was it just filled my heart to do it. Um but the in in talking to kids, and it was from uh middle school, I did a few um like grade school, but I did high school too. And um it really was um me saying, because I don't have a college degree, I don't have a I have a I have a you know a high school diploma, but it was me saying, if any one of you, and I hear and in every class I did was like, Nate, you should see some of these kids' artwork. It's just amazing, it's a mind-blowing and and and I would go in generally doing demonstrations, you know, showing them my hat, some of my equipment and how I measure, and but really it was a platform for me to say any one of you could accompany what I've done. I and I would always say I started with $20,000. Now, how do you start with $20,000? Well, here's what you do: you write a business plan. Well, how do you I do how do I do that? Well, one of the ways of doing it, and and I did it without a college degree, but I would always say one of the ways is if you got a college degree, any one of you, there's no stopping you. Because now you know how to maybe how to manage it, how to you'll learn how to market it. More than anything, you'll know that I need to know more than what I know. Um, because when when my wife Kerrie and I started this, we did, I felt, you know, I felt like a loser. We were doing night classes at a Votech to learn how to do, you know, how to account and at the time how to do websites and how to do, yeah. So I did do a lot of studying too. I've read business books. Um, but going back to native kids, oh, and to me, the the the biggest part of this story was when I first started, uh, I went in like with the maybe with the little chip on my block, or chip on a on a block or however you say that, that I'm gonna go in and show these kids something. But it was amazing how often I would leave being very humbled and very like, oh my gosh, I got so much more from them than they got from me. Sure. So it was always amazing how often, and I and I don't I what started me the first career, it's called it was career days, was I heard a guy go in and he was saying, you know, how much he owned and how many houses and how and and I'm like in my head, I'm listening, going, These kids don't want to hear that. They don't, they're just like going to you, okay, great for you, but uh you're in here bragging and and I have you know nothing, or I'm I don't want to listen to you. So I always went in thinking that like I I want to tell you I'm the tenth of a living kid, I want to tell you there was no college fund, I want to tell you um that pretty much I was on my own at 18. But but I will I want to tell you too that our house was full of love. I mean, my parents were great people, and they were humble people, and they and they didn't, if if they were alive right now and heard me saying this, they would say, no, don't say that.

Judy Oskam 21:28

Yeah, yeah.

Nate Funmaker 21:29

Because that's how they were.

Judy Oskam 21:30

Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah.

Nate Funmaker 21:33

But yeah, that was the the bulk of my career days, and it's funny as I moved out. This was my Colorado days where I was near uh Navajo land, and and um but so that spoke to my heart. Being I'm full blooded um Ho Chunk Indian. Um, they're also known as Winnebago. So for your listeners, yeah, that's um that's what really pushed me to to do that. And it was humbling to do it. It was, and and I got the most out of it. I mean, I still think about it.

Judy Oskam 22:06

Well, and being the artist and then the businessman. Yeah. And you and your wife building this business together.

Nate Funmaker 22:13

Right. I mean, I'm half of it because Kerrie accounts for the business. And Kerrie manages it. And Kerrie accounts for 300 orders that we have on our computers that I couldn't do. I wouldn't do. I I don't have that. I I'm worried about it every day. It's like I have to, I have to build, I have to come in here and perform every day, so to speak. And hats don't make themselves. And I don't say that.

Judy Oskam 22:39

And that's the love of an entrepreneur. That's an entrepreneur.

Nate Funmaker 22:42

I say that lovingly, like I still love it. At 62, I'm not hireable no more. So I'm um, it's funny, my son Ethan is going through interviews, and his girlfriend is um studying to be a nurse, but she's actually gone through him on how to do a job interview because I don't even know. Yeah, I don't know how to do it. It's like just I'm gonna drop you off and go talk to them.

Judy Oskam 23:05

And well, and you sort of charted your own path.

Nate Funmaker 23:08

Yeah, I tried to do that. You charted your own path.

Judy Oskam 23:11

And that's something that it's sort of the the American dream.

Nate Funmaker 23:15

No, without a doubt, it is. I mean, and without a doubt, it's you know, if if if I go home to Wisconsin, I'm from Wisconsin, I rarely go, but it's amazing how many people are like you. Your mom and dad would have been so proud, and yeah, and we're proud of you. And and I love that. I don't love it to be again to be the man or to say, yeah.

Judy Oskam 23:37

You're a humble guy. I know who I am.

Nate Funmaker 23:39

Yeah, you don't have to say yeah, yeah. I say it to um when I hear that, I want it to be more like, hey, there's this ho chunk Indian that's has a hat shop and he's accomplished this and that. That's what I want, you know.

Judy Oskam 23:53

So not not to be again the the man, but well, you sound just like your parents, very humble, very humble, right? Very humble. But well, I love the story you told earlier about the gentleman that was ill and he watched your documentary, and so the people that that gets your hat, it's such a special, even though it you have to wait for it.

Nate Funmaker 24:16

Yes.

Judy Oskam 24:17

I bet it really is impactful for them. Right. And and I and I and feel the magic.

Nate Funmaker 24:23

I've seen, like we had in the last year a customer come in and he just said, Can can I can I just put it on for a minute? And yeah, of course he could. But he just sat there and cried for about 15, 10 or 15 minutes, and he just said, This just touches my heart.

Speaker 3 24:40

Yeah.

Nate Funmaker 24:40

And and I was I'm humbled by that. I I don't I'm like, I mean, I know it was an it was an emo it was an emotional for him. And I get emotional too. I I either have this like high strung, I'm Native American, um, you know, I'm a proud Native American, and yeah, but but I have that as well.

Judy Oskam 25:00

Yeah.

Nate Funmaker 25:00

I can have it with the song. So I mean, I love music. Um, but yeah, you're right.

Old-School Tools And What Comes Next

Judy Oskam 25:07

Well, look ahead five years.

Nate Funmaker 25:08

Are you gonna be here in five years or I don't think that I I don't have the answer for that. What I do know is I lease this building. So every couple years I've been doing a new lease, and and if it gets too high at some point, I'm just gonna have to say thanks, but I I'm gonna have to move on. And to me, moving on, and and and what what I would what I hope to do next, and and this is a good part of business that is important to to me to tell people is you have to first imagine it. You have to like say, this is what I'm gonna do next. I don't know how I'm gonna do it. That's what when I came to Texas, it's like, that's what I'm gonna do next. Because 30% of my Colorado business comes from Texas. So my next will be what in in uh Lord willing will be a house and I build a shop. I build a beautiful shop and just say, if my gate's open, then I'm open. If my gate's not open, then I'm not open. You could go on the internet and then I will hopefully have a little better website than what I got, more to where you can navigate and just buy a hat through that.

Judy Oskam 26:19

Yeah.

Nate Funmaker 26:19

Um really what sells my hats more than anything, I think, is not more than anything, but I use hundred-year-old equipment. I mean, my fitter is 140 years old. So that's what blows people's minds, and that's what would blow my mind, is like this guy still uses that. It's not like he's um opening a box and the open crown flat brim has his name in it and he shapes it, and I should do that. Uh at the end of the day, that's what I should be doing. I mean, I build a hat.

Judy Oskam 26:49

So why do you why do you use the original?

Nate Funmaker 26:52

I just love that. I I want more of that. I want more of the old school. It's it's it's it's always a bummer for me to go to another state. I used to go to Ohio and I had a friend there, and this 10-story building, and of all things, it was a coffin company. But he said, Nate, that used to employ 500 people, and that was blah, blah, blah. I love that. And and and on the same token, I hate it that the building's still there and it's that's long gone and it's empty, you know. Yeah. Like anything, you know, you could build a great um whip, you know, and you could be the best whip maker in the world, and maybe there's a hundred of them, and now maybe there's fifty, and now maybe there's five. And the guy that was maybe the best was the one hanging on for, you know, doing it.

Judy Oskam 27:38

But yeah. Yeah. What does that say about how you feel about history and the past?

Nate Funmaker 27:43

I think that's a hard thing, right? I mean, it's it's hard that um I I think we're in a day and age where, and I think we're coming back to that. Like I listened to Mike Rowe a lot, where he's definitely into makers. The trades and into the trade. Oh man.

Judy Oskam 28:00

Yeah.

Nate Funmaker 28:01

And I so loved that. I live for that. Um, we had a votech in our little town in Colorado. And um, these guys would learn how to be mechanics and electricians and and not picking on people, but some people were moving the town from out of state and going, why do we need that? It's like, because not all of us are gonna be geniuses and college graduates and trust funders. So there's some people that have to go work.

Judy Oskam 28:29

Yeah, and who are you gonna call when you need something?

Nate Funmaker 28:31

Yeah, and who are you gonna call when you need your washer, yeah, your dryer, your yeah. I mean, we need that. And and that's I know guys now that have gone on doing that and make great money and have kids of their own and in the business. And businesses. And I mean, that's to me what makes us good as a country is that there is still and I think it's um resurging. I mean, there's there's hat makers now that are popping up, and um, and I hope the best for them. I I I don't really watch anybody else. I kind of I know what I do, so yeah. Um but I still love to see bootmakers and saddle makers. And um, I think like you said, you hit it on the head. It's like there's a story behind it, and people want to hear that. As as boring as you may say you are, people want to hear that.

Judy Oskam 29:23

They do. Yeah, they do, and you've got a great story. Nate, thank you so much for sharing your time.

Nate Funmaker 29:29

You're welcome.

Judy Oskam 29:29

And opening your shop.

Nate Funmaker 29:30

You're welcome.

Judy Oskam 29:35

What I

Final Takeaways And A Nudge Forward

Judy Oskam 29:36

took away from talking with Nate is that finding work you love is something you can discover by doing it. He didn't know where helping a friend would lead, but once he found something he wanted to keep doing and used his artistic skills, he put in the time and became a master hat maker. And then he and Kerrie kept learning the business side. Now there's a year-long wait for his hats, and he's still imagining what comes next. A different shop, a different way to work. So if there's something you've been interested in doing, why not give it a try? Thanks for listening to Stories of Change, Helping You Navigate What's Next. I'm Judy Oskam.